This was a discussion that happened on the SMS Mailing List in November 2000. It all started speaking about Shenmue, an innovative and original game, that featured some elements from old Sega games, that was going to be released for the Dreamcast. The topic quickly became a discussion about the old times, their games, how everything has changed since then, and whatīs the best choice speaking of videogames. Richard Reinblatt, Jonathan Krenz, Kelesis, Tom J and of course me were involved in this. I found everything quite interesting, so I decided (with the authors' permission), to print it here, so everynody can read it. Sit back, relax, and prepare to read what resulted. If you have something to say about this topic, donīt hesitate to send it to me, and it will appear here too!

New consoles can't capture 1/10 of old-school magic that my SMS can. I play it way more than my DC, Saturn,and even my Genny. Shenmue is a game that actually fits the 3D polygonal presentation that the bulk of newer games have used since the mid-90s.
Yes, I prefer dragons and laser guns etc. But it's already been done; I seriosly doubt I will enjoy Phantasy Star Online as much as Shenmue, because the SMS already has the eternal Phantasy Star. It doesn't have a martial arts/movie/life simulator like Shenmue on DC.
However, this is not to say I don't enjoy modern updates. I seriously enjoy Street Fighter III way more than Street Fighter II,and of course I'll buy Phantasy Star Online. But the magic, the discovery within 8-bit games over 10 years ago won't be repeated, a least in my life. Thats why I'm glad Shenmue is so different; it's making new magic, not trying to fumble up old stuff. The inclusion of Hang-On, Space Harrier, and a Saturn is cool though. And there's a little Myau figurine that can be traded online!

-Jonathan Krenz.

Honestly, I have all of the newer systems and the only games I enjoy on
them are the 3 or 4 16 bit remakes that were at least halfway decent
(Castlevania: SoTN, Metal Gear Solid, Sonic Adventure, etc.) and even they
don't have the magic of the originals. It's difficult to admit, but I
believe the golden age of video games ended when the genesis/snes died.
Maybe I'm just some old grizzled game veteran complaining about these young
whipper snappers and their playstation 2's with their stupid snowboarding
games with their Offspring soundtracks complete with pop culture sellouts,
i don't know. But i know that when games didn't have the really fancy
graphics and sound and this silly third dimension, programers had to invoke
imagination and fun into the games in order to make them enjoyable. They
had to play well enough for us to forget about their relative unrealism.
We'll likely never see that again simply because the companies don't think
we need them anymore. After all, why appeal to imagination and creativity
when realism can be so well simulated? For many of us, the best game future
may involve living in the past.

-Richard Reinblatt.

Richard, I agree with you in everything.
Itīs not good to be stuck in the past, but sometimes (including when
speaking about videogames) itīs unavoidable. Also, Iīm not old enough to
have lived all the videogame stuff since it started. Iīm 20, so my videogame
experiences begun with the classic mid-late 80s arcades (Out Run, Double
Dragon, Rastan...), and with the SMS. I mean, Iīm young enough (if there
ever existed a limit age for videogames) to keep on being interested and
enjoy new gaming systems, but as I said, Iīve tried and I canīt. Games from
the SMS era were magic, originality and required imagination. Most of the
stuff that made SMS games original would look stupid in todayīs games (a
paper-rock-scissors event in a 128bit game? Heathen!). And there is a big
part involved with kidīs education. I look at some kids of today, and think
about me when I was younger, and I hardly see anything in common. Kids of
today donīt want fantasy, imagination or fairy tales. They want violence,
the more explicit as possible, and kill stuff. A game like like, say, Wonder
Boy III would never had any success today, it would be considered for girls.
And back in the eighties itīs often considered to be one of the best
adventure/plattform games ever... Sad but true, as you say, "the best game
future may involve living in the past".

-Thöja Enwizz.

Thank you for the kind words. I am also 20 years old, and from the sound of
things it seems like you and I had very similar childhoods :)
-Richard.

Hi everybody. ;)
I've been quiet lately, but this issue - I just couldn't ignore. ;))
> Richard, I agree with you in everything.
> Itīs not good to be stuck in the past, but sometimes (including when
> speaking about videogames) itīs unavoidable.
I think you guys are partly wrong here.
I love my SMS, and play it as often as I play my DC, PSX and Saturn,
actually.
But I don't think it's wise to decide that there were more good games back
then, on the 80's, than there are now, since it's just not true.
I think it's got something to do with the fact that everyone is fond of
nostalgy, no matter how old and on what area.
> I look at some kids of today, and think
> about me when I was younger, and I hardly see anything in common. Kids of
> today donīt want fantasy, imagination or fairy tales. They want violence,
> the more explicit as possible, and kill stuff. A game like like, say,
Wonder
> Boy III would never had any success today, it would be considered for
girls.
> And back in the eighties itīs often considered to be one of the best
> adventure/plattform games ever... Sad but true, as you say, "the best game
> future may involve living in the past".
I agree that if you compare today's kids to us (I'm 22, btw), there's a
certain difference of mentallity (though not as drastic as you claim), but
that's only natural.
Anyway - I think that difference is hardly a factor. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I think there are many more RPGs and Adventures today than there
ever were. Yes - the games are usually less sophisticated and are easier to
comprehend, but that's been the trend lately (like with books, TV and
movies), as time is getting more and more valuable.
I can't really say if it's good or bad, but it doesn't really matter, IMHO.
There are fun games today as well - we just need to make an effort to look
around and find them, while ignoring the cosmetic unimportant changes that
the companies are making in order to stay profitable.
I agree that some of the magic is gone, but I think the games are not be
blamed for this - it's us! We've grown old! ;)
(And yes - I didn't use the term "grow up" in purpose - I hate it! ;->)

-Kelesis.

Hi!
Kelesis:
Everything you said is quite right too. I would summarize everything in
this: as long there is people there will be variety. Variety on peopleīs
tastes, because, while there is people like me that simply canīt stand new
games (and I repeat Iīve tried to be attracted and interested by them),
there is people (like you, for example) that keep on playing and truly
enjoying new games. Whatīs the best attitude? I donīt know, but possibly
itīs yours, because you can still be excited about new games to come. I have
a big respect for todayīs games, but I sadly have to keep away from them, so
I know in advance that nothing new will ever be released for my favourite
systems.
You made a good and true point speaking about nostalgia. I think thatīs the
reason why some of us keep on playing old (including SMS) games. Nostalgia
sadly plays a big role in me, and playing those SMS games quickly birings
some memories from the old times (that were so different, sometimes better,
sometimes not) back. Maybe my tastes are somehow influenced by this
nostalgia, thatīs quite possible. And the same happens with music, comics or
movies. If you take a look at my music collection (which is quite huge),
youīll hardly find any new releases, most of them are from the seventies and
the eighties. Comics and movies of today, while there are always exceptions,
donīt have the special feeling that the old stuff used to have (always in my
humble opinion), and thatīs the case with games.
And that gets back to the 'variety' point. Iīm sure there are great games
for the newer systems, as well as hundreds of crappy fighting game clones,
and that happens with music and movies too. So I think itīs a matter of
peopleīs choices and tastes. People like me will possibly never enjoy a new
game, and will keep on playing their old systems. And people like you will
be open to new releases and playing both new and old systems. Who will enjoy
the most? I donīt know, but Iīm sure both of us will enjoy! :)
Oh, sorry for the looong e-mail ;)

-Thöja.

Hi!
> Hi!
> Kelesis:
> Everything you said is quite right too. I would summarize everything in
> this: as long there is people there will be variety. Variety on peopleīs
> tastes, because, while there is people like me that simply canīt stand new
> games (and I repeat Iīve tried to be attracted and interested by them),
> there is people (like you, for example) that keep on playing and truly
> enjoying new games.
It doesn't really make sense to me....
You're absolutely right about everyone's having his own taste, but as far as
I understand the term "taste" (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it
usually refers to a certain genre or to a certain author or a designer.
It's obvious that some people like RPGs, others enjoy mostly action games
and shooters, while others prefer stratergy games, etc.....
But all in all, even considering all the changes that the video games
industry has gone through, during the last 10 years, there are now more
games than ever available on each genre, and some of them are still similar,
in one way or another, to our favourite nostalgic games from 10 years ago.
I think there's more to your attitude than just taste.....
There's no right and wrong about it, but if you like video games in general,
I think you'll adjust to the new ones as well, when the time comes. ;)
I know from my own experience, that in order to open up to new things
(either video games, music, movies, or anything else), I have to be
completely fed up with the old stuff.
As long as I'm really into a certain music band, I won't be listening to
anything else, no matter how many good songs are being released. Only when I
grow tired of listening to those same songs over and over again, I'll start
looking for new stuff. On the other hand, I sometimes find myself willing to
compromise on some lousy music CDs, since I don't have anything I really
like to listen to.
>Whatīs the best attitude? I donīt know, but possibly
> itīs yours, because you can still be excited about new games to come. I
have
> a big respect for todayīs games, but I sadly have to keep away from them,
so
> I know in advance that nothing new will ever be released for my favourite
> systems.
I would consider it sad, indeed, but if you don't enjoy anything besides the
SMS games you already have - you've got all you need. That's another good
point of view about it, I guess. ;)
> You made a good and true point speaking about nostalgia. I think thatīs
the
> reason why some of us keep on playing old (including SMS) games. Nostalgia
> sadly plays a big role in me, and playing those SMS games quickly birings
> some memories from the old times (that were so different, sometimes
better,
> sometimes not) back. Maybe my tastes are somehow influenced by this
> nostalgia, thatīs quite possible. And the same happens with music, comics
or
> movies. If you take a look at my music collection (which is quite huge),
> youīll hardly find any new releases, most of them are from the seventies
and
> the eighties. Comics and movies of today, while there are always
exceptions,
> donīt have the special feeling that the old stuff used to have (always in
my
> humble opinion), and thatīs the case with games.
This is obvious, and I sometimes feel the same thing, but I keep reminding
myself that five years from now, this period will have been nostalgia as
well, so I decide that instead of spending all of my time on enjoying again
something I've already done, I spare some time to try new things. Some of
them I like and keep, others I dislike and toss away.....
And yeah - of course some of the magic is gone, but I think it's because of
what happens to people as they grow older, not because the games are
different.
I know that as a kid, I was much more enthusiastic about fantasy books and
video games than I am today. It was much easier to me to believe in the
games 10 years ago than now, but I can still enjoy a good RPG.
Actually, I can't wait for Phantasy Star Online!!! ;)
> And that gets back to the 'variety' point. Iīm sure there are great games
> for the newer systems, as well as hundreds of crappy fighting game clones,
> and that happens with music and movies too. So I think itīs a matter of
> peopleīs choices and tastes. People like me will possibly never enjoy a
new
> game, and will keep on playing their old systems. And people like you will
> be open to new releases and playing both new and old systems. Who will
enjoy
> the most? I donīt know, but Iīm sure both of us will enjoy! :)
> Oh, sorry for the looong e-mail ;)
> -Thöja.
I think you should do whatever makes you happy, no matter how "right",
"wrong" or "logical" it is. ;)
In the same way someone can't force himself to fall in love with someone,
like a certain kind of music, or enjoy a specific TV show, he can't force
himself to like new video games. Either you enjoy it or you don't.

-Kelesis.

Hello.
Well, here's my personal view on the issue.
There's something that used to be in old games that these days very rarely
rears it's head. It's called linearity.
To elaborate on that, many games used to have a set path, levels and often
an obvious completion point. In a game like Shinobi for exmaple, there was
no messing around with superfluous choices, massive environments, maps and
stats. Not all older games were linear; many (such as RPGs) were not, but
a substantial number were.
I don't think everything since the SMS is hopeless, but the majority of
games are just way too convoluted these days. I'm a linear action gameplay
fan and with the current systems, linear gaming is a dead art except for the
occasional title. In most cases this occasional title doesn't match up to
the best SMS games. With more recent "classic-style" shooters on the Saturn
for example, a million and one sprites, fancy scaling/rotation and multiple
polygons does not necessarily make a good game.
There's many things that make a playable game and while many are satisfied
with the type of playability on offer today, many prefer the pre-playstation
era. I'm one of them. I can count the number of excellent, simple, totally
linear games since the onset of the Playstation's domination on one
hand...and they're all for the N64 or Saturn.
As the simulation of reality has become more prevalent and linear gaming has
become a minority interest, I've found fewer titles to pick from. While
50%+ of Sega Master System games were poor, there were still far more good
linear action games to choose from.
I don't want to tinker with stats, configure my car, wander round a map or
think about where I'm going in the slightest. I need to use my brain enough
already without having to think deeply about my games too! I want to shoot
things, jump over things and avoid the enemy's fire while I shoot that
proverbial weak point. I can rarely do that anymore unless I use an older
console. In the SMS era, you had a choice.

-Tom.

Thöja,
You make several good points also. However, I still feel that the main
reason 99.9% of the games that are available for the "next-gen" systems are
not very good is their appeal to American popular culture. Back in the
"day" at least until the early to middle ninety's, many people saw games as
kind of a "geeky" hobby. However, those who were immersed in the
underground video game culture felt that it was more like an exclusive club
than a subculture. Video game companies, who of course were interested in
profits, appealed to this. We had real updates to games, from people who
really understood what made game fun. From Contra III: The Alien Wars to
Phantasy Star II, games were catered by, and catered to, the people that
knew what made the original games fun. Appeal to popular culture changed
all of this. No longer were the companies concerned with the wants and
needs of the video game elite (Which I think likely includes every person
on this list), they began to concern themselves with the wants and needs of
the masses. They catered to the Athletes, the grunge crowd, the wrestling
fans, the skateboarders, the drug users, the list goes on and on. Companies
made such enormous profits from this, that the wants and needs of the
"old-school" gamer, the gaming elite. How else can you explain the success
of such games as N20, Skitch'in, and the countless Tony Hawk rip offs? Who
is to blame for this? I blame Sony and their accursed Playstation :) , but
Nintendo was quick to jump on the bandwaggon and all but hang themselves in
the process. The needs of the gaming community have been turned on their
heads due to video games' absorbtion into the mainstream. BTW, I would have
no problem with having these posted on your site, Thöja. It makes for great
discussion. What's the URL?

-Richard.

And this is what resulted of that nice discussion. Join the SMS list for more topics from a mature pont of view like this!

-Thöja.

Old games vs New games